Erstwhile Central Bank of Nigeria (CBN) governor and former Finance Minister, Adamu Ciroma, is among politicians in the country that can be said to have seen it all. From the First Republic where he cut his teeth in political engagement, Ciroma, a founding member of the Peoples Democratic Party (PDP), has remained relevant in succeeding administrations in the land. On account of this privileged insight, he took on issues thrown at him in a recent encounter with Kaduna-based Liberty Radio. Special Correspondent, COLINS OSIGBEME, who monitored the interview, presents the excerpts.
President Goodluck Jonathan is seeking the approval of the National Assembly for a loan of $1 billion to fight terrorism. Are you in support of the request?
Adamu Ciroma
People who own the money are not foolish. If you come to borrow money for development, I can see reason for the loan because you are going to create development, create new resources and pay. If you come to ask for a loan to fight terrorists and you fail, it means that my money is lost. People are not foolish when they are going to lend money. A lot of statements are being made that people outside want to invest in this country. We are just fooling ourselves. There must be very few foolish people who want to invest in this country that is being wrecked by insecurity. I don’t see anybody lending his money for that purpose. We must use our resources. A lot of things are being said that a lot of money has been spent on the army and yet no new equipment has been bought for a long time. We have to be honest with ourselves. Who in government tells you something now that you will believe? Your government must be able to tell you something and you believe it. But right now, nobody in government will tell you something that you will believe. Look at the parents of the Chibok girls who came to visit the president. At the end, what happened? People are accusing each other of distributing money. These are the kind of things that really make people unhappy.
The national conference appeared stalemated when critical issues of derivation, local government, five per cent intervention fund and many more came up. How do you think we can come around these issues for the overall development of the country?
Well, the conference has performed in a strange manner. There are well experienced individuals there and there are some that don’t have that experience. What worries us outside the conference is that, collectively, the conference is behaving as if this country is just doomed. The truth is that anytime you are going to discuss issues of revenue allocation and derivation, there are always technical examinations of what the problems are, what the needs of the various parts are, and the contribution of the various parts. But you have to be sure that you are dealing with one economy, and when you are dealing with one economy, everybody has to benefit and nobody should feel cheated. This can be done only if the conference is based on honest and clear understanding of the need to do things that will preserve the unity of the country. Sometimes at the conference people would talk as if Nigeria’s unity is for them to decide just like that. Nigeria has been in existence since the British colonisation and Nigerians have been able to live with one another peacefully, and they increasingly know one another. They are behaving as if the country should be disbanded just like that. If Nigeria is disbanded, everybody will suffer and it is not for anybody to wish the other loses something because of the conference. So, we have to be careful about how we take decisions, because there is always the past and we should use the past to ensure that we have a secure future which is good for everybody.
Delegates from the South South believe that the past you are talking about was an era when they were neglected and therefore are demanding for 50 per cent derivation.
They may agitate for that now; but in the past, we showed concern. If you recall, there was a commission headed by the late Prime Minister, Abubakar Tafawa Balewa, which looked into the needs of the oil-producing areas now. It is not as if in the past, people didn’t care. That is not true because we cared. The Prime Minister was not from there; but he was worried about the fate of the people there. Everybody was concerned about that. So, this new-found argument is not true.
The North is going through hard times today. What is your reaction to people referring to the North as parasites and all that?
The truth is that there is a lot of damage to the North socially, economically etc. Right now, the North is the lead problem of Nigeria because of insecurity that is hurting the North more than any other region. The truth is that insecurity in any part of the country damages the whole and not a single part. In the South West, there has been discovery of secret cults and all manner of things; in the South East, there has been kidnapping and stealing; while in the South South, petroleum products are daily being stolen. So, the insecurity you see in the North is just part of the general insecurity affecting this country, and I hope that Nigerians are learning.
Peace and security of the state is something that is established and promoted by government. So, we pray and hope that people will learn that peace is a primary requirement for any society. Here in the North, especially in the North East part, the economy has been affected negatively; farmers cannot farm, traders cannot carry on with their trade; people on the street cannot live quietly; the rural areas have been populated. Some parts of the North have been taken over by the Boko Haram, and the damage done to the way of lives of the people is enormous. I hope that everybody will realise that we all have to contribute to establishing law and order to ensure that people live peacefully.
Chairman of the PDP Board of Trustees (BoT), Tony Anenih, said recently that Jonathan will run for the 2015 elections despite the single term pact he was said to have entered with PDP governors.
I was there when the party agreed to move the presidency between the North and the South. This president (Jonathan) was there when (former President Olusegun) Obasanjo presided over the meeting of the PDP that agreed on the movement of the presidency between the North and the South, and that it should be based on two terms each. Obasanjo did his two terms on behalf of the South, and the late Umaru Yar’Adua was doing his first term on behalf of the North. Unfortunately, he died, and the PDP leaders, instead of allowing somebody from the North to complete Yar’Adua’s terms, conspired to make sure that then vice president became the president. Since the leaders we made this agreement with departed from the agreement, I lost interest in Nigeria’s political affairs; since you cannot trust the people you formed a party with, people you were in power with and acted in government with. They departed at the middle of the day to something strange and unexpected. Whether it is Anenih who is the BoT chairman or any other party leader, I have no particular interest in who contests the election, since I have lost interest in the party itself.
You may have seen this as a betrayal of trust and, at the same time, don’t you think the people of the North who see you as a leader may also feel that you have betrayed them?
I have been involved in active politics for a long time and we have always kept our promises as party leaders. In this particular case, the party leaders abandoned the party’s position. I feel it is my duty to establish this before Nigerians because some of us do keep our words and it is in keeping these words that you establish what people believe.
How would you assess the Jonathan administration since he assumed office, especially from 2011?
From 2011 to date is a long time and government cannot act consistently bad or consistently well for such a long time. But one is at the moment worried by certain developments and one wishes that the government handles these matters better.
What are these areas that you are concerned about?
The biggest areas of concern in the country are those of insecurity, the issue of Boko Haram and the issues of bombing and things like that. These are problematic and they have become even more worrisome as we look forward to the 2015 elections because no matter what you do, politicians will always tend to guide their actions in line with elections. People are worried whether the 2015 elections will indeed take place as we expect. Everyone is hoping that the elections will be well conducted and that the results will be generally acceptable. But, everybody is worried.
Ijaw ex-militant, Mujahid Asari-Dokubo, was quoted as threatening that no Jonathan in 2015, no Nigeria. How would you react to this?
It will be a disgrace for me to start commenting on things like that because you cannot respond to every foolish statement.
There is the argument that the present leaders in the North have not harnessed the potentials available in the region for the overall benefit of the people.
In a situation where you have insecurity and disruption of the economy, you will have the people blaming one another. Blame game is part of attempt to put responsibility on somebody, instead of trying to find solution. I believe that anybody who is trying to find fault with somebody else is going to try to be more positive because at the end of the day, you have to find a solution to the problems that are worrying society.
Political corruption is a major problem in the country today. How do we stop the menace?
There is the need to re-define politics. Politics is about a state ensuring that public matters are conducted in such a way that at the end of the day, the lot of the ordinary masses is improved socially and economically. It is not about creating a system which makes politicians richer. It is not a system whereby you help your friend, right or wrong. It is not a system whereby you disrupt the lives of the ordinary people. Once you agree that politics is about economic improvement of the ordinary people and creating social stability in the society, it means that all the people involved and all the parties involved will be starting from the same level. This is what is required. But the problem now is that people perceive those in politics as working for their own pocket and enriching themselves. That has got to stop. Second, politics is to ensure that the conditions of the ordinary people are improved and not about helping your friend and hurting your enemy. Once we can go back to that kind of definition, then the country is going to settle down to a democracy that is fair and just for everyone.
What is your take on the recent impeachment of the Governor of Adamawa State and the attempt to impeach his Nasarawa counterpart?
My view is that people who hold responsibility must act responsibly. Public resources are to be spent to aid public good and not to be wasted on the promotion of the interest of friends and relatives. You have to be just and fair to everybody because once you are the president, governor or local government chairman, everybody in that area is your responsibility. You cannot just begin to act against people because they didn’t vote for you. Whether they voted for you or not, you are now the governor, local government chairman or the president. So, you have a responsibility to be fair and just to everybody in the society. I believe that one of the reasons responsible for the insecurity we have currently is a perception that the governor is not being fair and just to everybody in the state, as they try to break those who are not their friends politically, and people try to resist. You remember that at the inception of this Boko Haram, there was a politician who supported a certain governor and, at the end, he was killed alongside other people by security agencies. That was the beginning of this Boko Haram scourge. So, people holding positions of responsibility, whether they are local government chairmen, state governors or the president of this country, have to be fair and just. You cannot eliminate people because they didn’t support you or because you don’t like them. The state is there to protect citizens.
The situation you painted repeated itself recently in Zaria with the killing of El-Zakzaky’s children and members of his Shiite group. In addition to the clampdown on some newspapers recently, don’t you think we are in for a hard time?
A situation whereby agents of government attack people and deprive them of life is not acceptable anywhere. Anytime anything like this happens, the agency involved says it will investigate. Like somebody said, you cannot be a judge in your own case. The federal government has the responsibility to protect the lives of every citizen. For the army to say that they are investigating allegations against the military does not make sense. We are saying this must stop.
As for the invasion of the media, let me say that freedom of the press is part of the freedom of the individual. If the press cannot report what it sees, much worse things will happen. Seizure of newspapers meant for the market is not acceptable and we want normal live to continue in this country.
Some people believe that the best way to have a credible election devoid of all the intrigues associated with our elections in Nigeria is to hold all the elections in one day. What is your take on this?
Holding all elections in one day will not solve the problem. In India, elections are held over a long period. It is not the number of days used for the election that determines the credibility; it is the process. It is not the number of days that you took to conduct an election, but the integrity of the system and whether it was fair and just; whether people who are supposed to vote are allowed to vote. Are the votes counting? Is the number of votes more than the electorate? So, it is the quality of the conduct of the election that is critical.
Many people believe that credible people have abandoned Nigerian politics and that it no longer attracts the right calibre of people. How do you think we can begin to attract the right people to the system?
It is not right to say you must discourage one group or another. Rather, we should allow everybody interested to participate. A crook who wants to participate cannot be prevented. If you don’t want the people to vote for him, it is the society that should decide. In this our society, it is known that some people come with bags of money to buy votes and the people who are selling the votes know why the people are buying the votes; so I don’t think they expect anything good to come out of that. It is for the rest of society to ensure that they vote for good people, and not for the system to prevent good people from contesting election.
