PDP chieftain and erstwhile Minister of Transport, EBENEZER BABATOPE, in this interview with Assistant Editor, South West, MUYIWA OLALEYE, speaks on his participation in the late General Sani Abacha’s administration, the chances of his party in the South West, Boko Haram insurgency and endorsement of President Goodluck Jonathan by the Peoples democratic party (PDP) for the 2015 general election, among other issues.
There has been clamour, especially from the North and the opposition parties, for President GoodluckJonathan not to contest in 2015, given the security situation in the land. What is your take on this?
They are accusing the president of having an agenda for 2015 with the recent national conference. What is the president’s agenda for 2015? Whether we like it or not, there would be elections in 2015 and President Jonathan is entitled to re-elecion. If he announces that he wants to contest, he would be acting scripts strictly contained in our constitution. So, where then is the agenda?
Those against his re-election are hinging their position on alleged internal agreement in PDP that he would serve only one term.
I don’t believe in the one-term agreement at all. Even if he had said it, since it does not conform to the provisions of the Nigerian constitution, one should close eyes to it and dismiss such thing. I can tell you conveniently today that by the grace of God and with the consent of the Nigerian people, PDP will present Jonathan for election in 2015. The arrangement (internal pact) does not conform to the Constitution of the Federal Republic of Nigeria.
You were quoted in the media to have said that Bode George is the rallying point of PDP in the South West zone.
Bode George is the rallying point for PDP in the South West now, and that is why we thank God and the Supreme Court for giving a unanimous decision to free him from something which was put on his head by those chaps in the All Progressives Congress (APC). They wanted George to be liquidated politically, but the Supreme Court ruled on the basis of facts of law and got him out of the hook. To us, it is a major victory.
How do you feel about the continued captivity of Chibok school girls?
I am worried about the abduction of the school girls. This is a heinous crime. These girls could have been my own children. I am worried about it. But then again, I want to appeal to all Nigerians, particularly our leaders from the North, to do their best to see that the Boko Haram menace is removed from Nigeria. It is very important, whether we like it or not.
I am not claiming that Northern leaders are the ones that created Boko Haram, but during the 2011 elections, some Northern leaders said if Jonathan should win the election, they would make the country ungovernable. We can’t separate that from what is happening and that is why I am appealing to our Northern leaders to join in the fight against insurgency. I have another appeal to make to our government; let them work closer with Shehu Sani, who is an activist based in Kaduna. If they use that brilliant young man, they will be able to get an insight on how to tackle Boko Haram.
When you were growing up, definitely you must have had somebody that you were looking up to.
It was obvious that my role model was Papa Obafemi Awolowo, when you talk about Nigeria. When you talk in terms of Africa, Kwame Nkrumah of Ghana was my role model. When we were in secondary school, then I added Professor Wole Soyinka. We all loved his way of doing things, especially his fight for the rights of the oppressed people of Nigeria.
But Awolowo was definitely my role model. I met him at the age of 11 in 1954, at Ifaki, when he came to address a political gathering. The Action Group (AG) members in the city then organised a reception for him. As a youngster, I was delighted to see how Awolowo was marshalling out his points. I asked God Almighty to make me somebody like Awolowo. When I was in secondary school too, my principal, who is dead now, came to the classroom one day and asked what our life ambition as students would be. I remember saying to everybody that my ambition was to be the political secretary of Papa Awolowo. Twenty years after, I became the director of organisation of the party he led, the Unity Party of Nigeria (UPN).
As somebody that had been close to Awolowo, how would you describe him?
Awolowo was a wonderful, great and highly disciplined person. He impacted knowledge on all his associates and all those who took him as their leader. He was exceptionally disciplined and exceptionally programmed. When he woke up between 4.30am and 5am, he would have itemised what he wanted to do for the whole day. And he would achieve it. Apart from that, when it came to food items, Papa ate very little breakfast; he didn’t take lunch at all; but in the evening, he was there for his dinner or supper. He would spend three hours on table for his supper on the average. This is because he believed that the food was important enough to be respected.
He was a stickler to time. If you invited Awolowo for a function, he would be there five minutes to the time. If you were not ready after 20 to 25 minutes, he would leave. He was highly disciplined. He wrote great books out of a disciplined mind: My March Towards Prison, Travails of Democracy and Adventures in Power. He couldn’t complete the third one, which could have been titled For the Good of the Man. You cannot do this without being a disciplined person. I thank God for giving me the opportunity to serve under him because my life has been enriched with what I have been taught by the life and times of Papa Awo.
You came into politics at a young age and have remained in it. Do you have any regrets being in the game?
I have no regrets at all. I have no regret for being a radical activist, a student leader, a trade union leader and whatever. I thank God for what He has made me to be. Even when Olusegun Obasanjo, as the military head of state, dismissed me from service alongside my other friends – Edwin and Benedicta Madunagwu (husband and wife), Ola Oni, as well as Professors Bade Onimode and Obafumi Onoge – I had no regrets. We were all sent out of the university system. I also was detained three times: twice under Gen. Yakubu Gowon and once under Gen. Muhammadu Buhari. The one under Buhari took me 21 months. Why must I regret? Apparently that is part of the nature of being in a political struggle?
You participated in the late Gen. Sani Abacha military government which was seen in bad light by some people, especially in the South West. What actually led to that situation?
Serving Abacha did not come with the Moshood Abiola (June 12) election in 1993. There was a coup that was led by Abacha, Gen. Oladipo Diya, Gen. Jeremiah Useni and all of them. They removed Ernest Shonekan and then said they were going to have a government. First, it was to be a short-term government. They invited political pressure groups to send in people to join the government. The Awolowo political family was contacted. A meeting was held in the late Alfred Rewane’s house in Ikeja, Lagos, where four of us – Mrs. Osomo, Dr. Olu Onagoruwa, Lateef Jakande and I – were chosen to go into government. When we got to government, certain things developed which, in fact, militated against those of us who wanted to serve as honest Nigerian citizens and who wanted to represent our political group. So we left government after 14 months and went into our various homes. It had nothing to do with Abiola. The arrest of Abiola, which is quite unfortunate and which eventually led to his death, was something that was decried by everybody. Even when we were in government, we decried it.
As a youth, what were your expectations of Nigeria? Would you say what you had in mind then tallied with the country’s situation now?
I believe that a country does not die economically. The only punctuation mark I have is that Nigerians have not learnt a lesson from the Nigeria-Biafra war. When I was in the university, I was exceptionally pro-Biafra. I was pro-Biafra because I felt that a group of people never believed that Nigeria must have a southern leadership. Every little thing that happened was interpreted in the manner of North and South, and with advantage to the North. There was a time the North was absolutely in control of the military. We felt it was wrong. That was why many of us at that time as undergraduates joined in the struggle to have Nigeria as a confederal state. Now things are changing.
Some people believe that being an associate of Awolowo who was known for his progressive politics, your choice of PDP, which is regarded as conservative, is wrong.
I have told many of my friends, including journalists, that no political party in Nigeria can say it is a progressive or an ideology-based party. Not one or a single party! Don’t forget that the late Bola Ige wrote the manifesto of all major political parties in the country today. Apparently, there is nothing you can charge PDP for as being conservative that you can’t charge the APC or Labour Party (LP).
Precisely, we should be praying that one day, Nigerians will turn to what we had in the First and Second Republic when there were ideology-oriented political parties. Right now, there is none. Many of my colleagues in APC are still my friends. For instance, it is difficult for me now at over 70 to start jumping ship. It is arrant nonsense. If I leave the PDP today, I will retire to my house and play my domestic politics very well, eat my pounded yam, which is typical of Ijesha people, and then wait for when God would say I should come home. I tell you that no party is ideological except we are deceiving ourselves. There is no progressiveness in any political party.
Unlike in the Second Republic, the political parties now lack clear-cut programmes and manifestoes. What does that say about our democracy?
We are getting to that stage, because Nigerians are now asking questions. Look at all elections that had been held after 2011. In those elections, people have been asking questions. They have risen to let everybody know that they are aware of what is going on and are going to vote according to their conscience. Look at how the people of Ondo State rose up to vote for Olusegun Mimiko because they recognised that Mimiko was doing the right thing; he was doing well, executing programmes that would enhance the people’s welfare.
With Nigerians becoming politically conscious and asking questions, you find out that we are going to have a situation very soon when we will have issue-oriented political parties. That is what we are waiting for and that is what we are going to get.
How would you assess Jonathan’s government?
Jonathan’s government has not done anything criminal. His government has done things which I believe have been within the normal pattern of what we have been seeing in Nigeria since Independence. Jonathan is thriving; I can say that, not because we are from the same political party. If he was not doing well, I will take my pen and write a letter to him. The man is trying his best.
Nigeria is a difficult country to govern politically. In Nigeria, because of the volatility of politics, people are prepared to sacrifice and crucify a ruler who is unable to prove to them why the action that ruler is taking has become necessary. Jonathan is trying, and where there are lapses, he should cover up. For example, he said recently that this year the government will do everything to ensure it meets the hopes and aspirations of Nigerians. That is good enough. That is a clear-cut statement by him that things are not going on well. He wants to correct them and so we should give him all the encouragement to do it. We should wish him the best of luck.
There is the impression that with the current crop of politicians in the system, the challenges facing the country would persist. How would you react to this?
It depends on what they mean by ‘crop of politicians’. We must ensure that there’s proper development – intellectually and socially – of those who participate in the political process. What is politics? The amala, tuwo, shinkafa and the eba your wife prepares for you at home is based on political decisions. Apparently, if you apply that to national politics, you’ll discover that we need to ensure that those who take part in politics are those who want to give service to the people. Their cardinal point in politics is service to the people. When we have that, we are going to have success in this current democratic experiment.
The argument is that with the older generation’s stranglehold firm on the system, the younger ones cannot contribute their quota to national development.
I am one of the people who believe that we must encourage the youth to develop because the future belongs to them. But again, in politics, you don’t put a demarcation in terms of rendering service to the people. A 70-year-old man, an 80-year-old man and an 11-year-old boy will know how to fit in. Where the youth must participate, they must do it effectively. But again, look at many countries in the world and you can see people in their 80s. That notwithstanding, I believe that the youth themselves must be prepared to learn in a very hard way for them to give their best in the service to their country.
Afenifere used to be the voice of the Yoruba nation until few years ago, when it was factionalised. Is it due to the selfish political interests of Yoruba leaders as many people allege?
I am a member of Awolowo’s Afenifere. But if you’re talking of the current Afenifere, I don’t belong to it. It is going to be preposterous for me to start commenting on an organisation I don’t belong to. Many of the members, particularly the elders, were in the same party with me in the Second Republic. I wish them best of luck. They are seasoned politicians that I respect. What happens in their association is their problem. If you ask me about the Afenifere led by Awolowo, of course, I can assure you that we still meet. And when we meet under the aegis of Yoruba Unity Forum (YUF), we discuss issues that affect the affairs of the Yoruba people and Nigeria. We have always had consensus and that is very important. Any consensus in the Awolowo formation is for national progress.
I’m not a member of the current Afenifere that is designed on paper; I am a member of the YUF, which was founded by Mama HID Awolowo and assisted by the Ooni of Ife. That is where I belong and it is very important to me. We are not partisan; the YUF is made up of all political parties in Yoruba land. All that is important is to define properly what the position of the Yoruba should be within the context of the Nigerian system.
Does it mean that YUF has replaced Afenifere?
I have not said so; I only said Afenifere is slightly political. The YUF is not a political organisation; it is an organisation that embraces all political parties in Nigeria. The PDP and APC are there. We are not like Afenifere. The Afenifere you’re talking about is the Afenifere political group, which is headed by (Reuben) Fasoranti. I am not a member of that group.
How would you react to the recent statement by Dr. Frederick Fasehun that he’s reviving the defunct UPN led by Awolowo?
Dr. Fasehun is a seasoned person. He is known for radical views. He said he has formed the UPN. I am not a member of the UPN he has formed. He has formed a party that brings to memory the great UPN of the Awolowo days. He has not said this is a reincarnation of the UPN. I’m not a member of the UPN by Fasehun, but I respect him and his motivation for the group. I am a member of the PDP and that is where I’m going to remain. It does not mean that we cannot cooperate with the UPN in the 2015 elections. Of course, I’ll encourage and advise the PDP to go into partnership with the UPN, so that we can bring the best to the country.
Some politicians have claimed that Yoruba leaders betrayed Awolowo and Abiola during their political struggles. Do you agree?
I think we have to be careful here. When Awolowo was alive, he never said anybody betrayed him. No, especially when you’re talking of political affiliation, because everybody has the right to join any political party of his choice. You can only talk of betrayal in terms of the inner party crisis of the AG in the First Republic. That is only when you can talk of betrayal. When you talk of the whole political affair, the generality of Nigerians – the Yoruba included – voted for Abiola. The issue of betrayal does not arise. Even some of those in the defunct National Republican Convention (NRC) joined us in the defunct Social Democratic Party (SDP).
The only time you can talk of betrayal was when we had an inner party crisis in the AG, when some members decided to dump the party to form what was called Nigerian National Democratic Party (NNDP). Awolowo said those who were in the UPN then were there because they believed they had to be there. He also said he wouldn’t quarrel with those who left the party, and that it didn’t mean we should treat them as traitors. The only period in the history of this country you can talk of betrayal was when we had the AG crisis and some followers decided to form the NNDP with Ladoke Akintola.
In the case of Abiola, the majority of Yoruba people voted for him and there was nobody, till today, that has come to say he didn’t win the election. Those who opposed June 12, 1993 elections were those who supported Gen. Ibrahim Babangida’s annulment of the election. Ninety-eight per cent of Yoruba people never supported the annulment of the election.
But during Abiola’s struggle to claim his mandate, some Yoruba leaders accepted to be part of Abacha’s cabinet.
Nobody has ever said by joining the Abacha cabinet, they have betrayed Abiola. No. Even Abiola supported the emergence of Abacha and the formation of his cabinet. It was in the process of running the government that Abiola disagreed with them and there was a problem. But as regards betraying Abiola to work with Abacha, forget it!
Diya and Jakande have said they had no regrets working with Abacha. How about you?
Why must I have regrets? I’m a historian. I have no regrets serving under the government. If I say I have regrets, then I’ve falsified my political history. The most important thing is that all of us have learnt sufficient lessons from when the country was amalgamated in 1914. And what we have learnt will help us to face bigger challenges in the future with courage. And at the end of the day, we’ll have an undivided country with the interest of the people as the maxim point of political interest and governance.
Do you think the Yoruba have been marginalised under Jonathan’s administration?
I can assure you that whatever we feel is wrong with us as Yoruba will be made right by President Jonathan. Don’t forget that when we formed this government, the president told the Yoruba in the PDP that we should ensure that we had the Speaker of the House of Representatives. Unfortunately, some elements in the National Assembly aided and abetted by (former Lagos State governor and APC leader) Bola Tinubu went ahead, pulled sizeable members of the PDP and awarded the post to the Speaker we have there now. We cannot accuse the North of not having Yoruba interest. Whatever wrongs we want to talk about are being corrected.
Nigeria is 54 years since Independence. Do we have anything to show for self rule?
There are many things to show for it because Nigeria is a country that can be compared with any other country in terms of many things. We have lived together without any problem since 1960 which we can be proud of. No matter the problems that are currently facing Nigeria, I can assure you that they will be overcome because we have managed to survive. We fought a bitter civil war and survived. We must be thankful to God that we have one indivisible country. Second, there have been developments coming up here and there in the country. They are solid and can make any Nigerian to be proud that we have a country called Nigeria. Third, despite the Boko Haram insurgency, Nigeria continues in a positive stride to development. These, to me, are things that will make us very proud to be part of Nigeria. I will continue to be part of Nigeria.
Can you say the country is as united as it was in 1960?
Of course, Nigeria is united. There is bound to be problems here and there as a federation. Because of conflict of interests, there will always be difference in opinions. Despite all these things, Nigeria has been made one indivisible country. I want to praise our country men and women for this. I want to tell them that many people in the world are proud of them. Boko Haram is just an isolated case of political nuisance, but God almighty will cover it for us and we will continue to shine.
How do you see the endorsement of Jonathan by your party?
I was out of the country. If I were to be here, I would have participated fully in all the processes leading to his endorsement. Jonathan is very good and calm. He never rushes to judgement. He listens to suggestions. Honestly speaking, I think the young man has tremendous achievements he has carried out and still carrying out. Look out the way this country is handling Ebola. He has put in every effort to ensure Ebola does not destroy the Nigerian population. Even in the power sector, he has also tried his best to make sure we have efficient power supply. I am not saying he is perfect; but he is trying his best.
