An account of the current civilian dispensation in the country cannot be complete without robust mention of Mohammed Dikko (MD) Yusufu, former Inspector General of Police. When, for instance, it appeared all had gone into hiding on account of General Sani Abacha’s self-succession agenda, Yusufu dared the late Head of State, challenging him from the platform of the then Grassroots Democratic Movement (GDM). Even in the present dispensation, he had made bold but unsuccessful attempts for the Presidency, running on the ticket of Movement for Democracy and Justice (MDJ). Yusufu is no more in active politics, but certainly not oblivious of developments in the country. In this engaging dialogue with IKECHUKWU AMAECHI and EMEKA ALEX DURU, he speaks on a wide range of issues, including Boko Haram insurgency, President Goodluck Jonathan’s second term ambition, the Nigeria Police, the on-going national conference, his encounter with the late military Head of State, Sani Abacha, and others.
MD Yusuf
It’s been long since Nigerians last heard from you. What have you been doing? What has been happening to you?
I don’t think they would like to hear anything from me because there is nothing much left for me to say; I have virtually said everything. That is why they are cutting me off.
You were among those that literally put their lives on the line to actualise the current democracy. Looking back, do you think it was worth it, considering the state of affairs in the country presently, especially in terms of good governance?
You see, in a situation as this, you do what you have to do, say what you have to say and leave the rest to Nigerians.
What do you think has gone wrong with our democracy?
Have you got any democracy? We have not got any democracy. We have not yet started to get into democracy. All we do, I think, is to talk on irrelevant issues with some people coming forward to say they are in politics. That is all. There is no democracy at all.
Have you ever attempted talking to the people running the system; for instance, former President Olusegun Obasanjo, who is your friend?
No! Surely, Obasanjo would not like any advice. He would like to be on his own, as I would like to be on my own. Since we parted, I think I have seen him only once or twice.
Why do you think we have this current level of insecurity in the country now? Precisely, what do you think of Boko Haram?
It took the present dimension two or three years ago, and the things in the country seem to have supported what they are doing. Nobody seems to be bothered about how to bring them back, if at all they are to be brought back or to reach them. I think that is why they are still doing what they are doing; although it is horrible to be killing people, especially youngsters, here and there. It is very terrible.
You were an Inspector General of Police (IGP). What do you think ought to be done to contain all these things?
Yes, I was Inspector General of Police at a time. But it was not the same time and type of situation as we have now. Then and now are totally different times. So, it may be difficult for me to suggest what to be done.
What made the difference between then and now? Is it all about politics? What has gone wrong with our system?
The time and situation that we had in those days are completely different from what we have now. I have always wondered how we got ourselves into this type of situation. I think, one of the things was that the time was totally different. Our leaders in those days, instead of going straight in getting the situation different from what they adopted, went into separate ways. For example, instead of getting us united, they embarked on ethnic politics, as it were. It was not their fault; that was how they found the situation, but they went along on ethnic lines. Look at India and other countries that had similar experiences as we did. They got themselves into different situations that were not ethnic-based. Even in politics, they got different type of politics. But here, instead of our leaders coming together, they went into different ways. That was why we found ourselves in this situation.
What, then, is the way out of the situation?
It may be a little difficult looking for the way out. We have come a long way on that situation to what we currently have.
A school of thought insists that the whole idea of Boko Haram is politics; in fact, an attempt by the North to stop President Goodluck Jonathan from going for another term. Do you believe in that?
I don’t think that is correct. This is not the way to remedy the situation. We should rather pray to God that we would one day get out of the situation.
What is your relationship with the Jonathan administration?
I don’t have any relationship with it. I don’t put myself in any situation that has to do with politics. I have completely got myself out of that.
What is your opinion on the Constitution conference? Do you see it taking us out of where we are?
My view is of the old type which is different from what we see happening now that is characterised by money politics. I think that we ought to have left that. I had said that since we adopted ethnic politics from the outset, it has been difficult for us to go back to the real system.
Does it mean that you do not think that there is any way we can remedy the country?
One may be tempted to say yes. But I don’t think it is an old man like me that should answer that question. We left the answer to this question behind, long ago. To start again will be quite difficult.
You led the challenge against the late General Sani Abacha when virtually everybody went into hiding. What motivated you to embark on that cause?
You would recall that in the statement I made when I first came out, I said we were asking for soldiers to go and hand over politics to civilians because the military was then ready to hand over as we thought. So, Abacha and his group came out to hand over. Many could not come out to say we are ready, except few of us who came out to say we would take over. Without that move, by the end of the period which Abacha specified for himself, there would be nobody around to take over. So, we said we would come out and take up the challenge. That was what we did. And it ended up how it ended up.
Some people still allege that you were actually thrown up by Abacha to put some credibility to what he was doing and that you were never a real challenge.
Yes, there was that group of people. But why did they not come out themselves and work with me, so that they could see whether I was real or not?
Did it then occur to you that you were taking a risk in challenging Abacha, given his obvious interest in transiting to a civilian President?
You had to take risk in going into such a situation.
Who was Abacha that you knew? Was there any incident in those days that ever got you scared in going about the whole thing?
I didn’t know him when I came out. What the people were saying when I came out was “he will kill you” or “he will send someone to kill you if you challenge him”. I virtually grew up in government. I didn’t see it at all that in government, which I knew, they were killing people. That was why I was daring. It was only in politics that you come to challenge and to accept challenge and see what would happen.
Was there any experience you had that time that you have not been able to tell Nigerians? Was there any attempt on you?
No; not at all! I was never challenged nor threatened by anybody. It was sheer fear by Nigerians that prevented them from coming out.
You have not been known to be a ‘rich’ man. Where did you get the money to embark on that exercise?
There was no money involved in coming out to throw a challenge. And there was no need for money. A lot of Nigerians, don’t forget, came out and encouraged us to go ahead. And we did go ahead without too much money.
Some of us were at the defunct GDM convention in 1998 where Abacha defeated you in the primaries…
(Cuts in) No, he didn’t defeat me; he challenged me. What happened was that government came out and said “we don’t want the way you are going; we are going to put all our money and encourage other people to support us”. That was what they did. But there was no real challenge in the right sense.
Was there any attempt to sway you by way of enticement to drop your ambition?
No. As I said, what happened was that the government came out and said “alright, you say you want to challenge us; come out and challenge us”. We went out and finished with that.
What would you identify as the difference between the current Police Force and the one you headed?
I had always thought that I would be asked that question. But there would be no possibility of comparing that time and now. It was a completely different time.
Why? How?
To start with, the situation was completely different. Even the weather was completely different. It is hotter now than the situation then. There is no basis for comparison. Policing in those days was totally different from the way it is today. The difference is so much that I cannot start comparing the two eras.
You were in government in the 1970s. What was it like to be in the system then?
It was a situation whereby when you were in a position, there was a definite system and you would follow it. But today, it is entirely different. For example, you were asking me whether there was an attempt on my life. It was totally different in those days. Such things never happened at all.
What would you recall as your most memorable experience so far?
There was none in particular. You know I was working for government from 1950s down to the period of my retirement, unless there is a particular incident you would want me to report. But as far as I am concerned, we were working and there was no particular incident I would consider memorable.
It was said that you tendered a resignation letter to the government when General Murtala Muhammed was assassinated. Did you really do so? Why, if you did?
No, I didn’t. I didn’t because, in the first instance, we, in the police, were never given the chance to investigate the military. So, there was no reason for me to feel concerned with what was essentially a military affair.
Recently, the Central Bank of Nigeria (CBN) governor, Sanusi Lamido Sanusi, was suspended by the President. How would you react to that?
I think it was once or twice that I functioned as accountant in government. That was in the Native Administration (NA).That was the time I ever joined in this type of managing situation involving accountancy and money management. That was all. So, I never knew anything about what happened in the Sanusi case.
What was it like growing up in those days?
It was very nice. I enjoyed every bit of it. Life was, by far, better than what you are enjoying now, if at all you can call it enjoyment.
Did you socialise, like going for parties and related activities?
Well, as it was in those days, we enjoyed ourselves.
You were a friend of the late music icon, Fela Anikulapo Kuti, to the extent of visiting his Afrika Shrine. Could it be said that you were leftist in orientation?
The late Ukpabi Asika, the Administrator of the then East Central State, was my friend. He used to come to Lagos. Sometimes when he came around in the middle of the night while we were talking, he would say,“let us go out.” That was how I first went to Fela Anikulapo Kuti’s shrine in Ikeja.
You have a strong relationship with one of the children of Dr. Nnamdi Azikiwe. How did it come about?
In those days, I was in the Northern Elements Progressive Union (NEPU). And NEPU was associated with National Council of Nigerian Citizens (NCNC). I also had a friend and classmate in Kano with whom I grew up together. He is Alhaji Magaji Dambazzau. It was because of him and other friends that we grew up together that we got ourselves dragged into NCNC. Then, NCNC was the godfather, as it were. That was how I got dragged into NCNC politics and, indeed, into Nigerian politics at that time. That was how we became friends to Zik and his associates.
Would it be right for one to describe you as a radical, given your brand of politics that has often seen you running against the dominant tendencies of the time?
To start with, you can’t just sit down and allow yourself to be dragged one way or another. There must be other ways of doing things.
How would you like to be remembered by Nigerians?
I would like to be remembered as MD Yusufu.
A man who had the courage of his conviction to challenge dictatorship?
Well, I don’t think I am that courageous. But if you say this is the way you want to follow, I would like to be allowed to determine which other way I have to follow.
Some groups, including the Northern Elders Forum (NEF), headed by Prof. Ango Abdullahi, are insisting that the North should produce the President in 2015. Do you agree with that position?
I don’t like to drag myself into such matters because that is their view and I don’t like to follow other people’s line. I want to follow my own way.