Eighty-three-year-old Ebun Oyagbola was the first female cabinet minister in Nigeria. She was Minister of National Planning in the Shehu Shagari administration of the Second Republic and later Nigeria’s Ambassador to the Mexican States of Panama, Costa Rica and Guatemala. In this interview with Special Correspondent, TAYE AYOTUNDE, she speaks on Nigeria of her time, the current political situation, and the way out of many challenges facing the country, among other issues.
How would you assess the current political situation in Nigeria?
The political situation in Nigeria has turned sour to the extent that we believe money is the order of the day. During my time as Minister of the Federal Republic of Nigeria, it wasn’t so, though we needed money to implement many programmes in the country. But in politics of today, we make money our master, leader and everything, to the extent that things have actually fallen apart. Even those people in power know what I am saying. For instance, almost every person is living as a pauper now because there is no money. Nobody knows what is happening to our money. People are really suffering. Parents struggle to educate their children. After the education, no matter what degree they make at the end of the day, there is no job for them. They are going about doing nothing. If you meet some of these youths, they reek of alcohol because they have nothing doing. They have lost their thoughts; they are no longer thinking straight. They don’t even know where they belong. They do not know what to do. The problem of the youth is a very big challenge for the country.
What do you think is the solution?
The solution is to teach the youth how to change their attitude. I am saying all these not because I have attitude-healing centre; what I am saying is that attitude is everything and everything is attitude. There is no love. Even within families, you see so many breaking up because of money.
How do you feel now with your age?
I feel so good and active. I am a senior citizen and I will be 84 by May next year. I am still feeling very strong because I have certain principles that I have been following. I do not take any position in government because of money. That was why I said initially that I was lucky to be a minister at the time I was. There was even no money at that time. Let’s say you know how to steal; where was the money for you to steal? We were receiving about N1,000 per month each as ministers. What would you do with that? When we started, ministers were given two vehicles – Peugeot 504. After sometime, a president from a neighbouring country refused to come to Nigeria for a conference because he said he could not enter Peugeot. So, the elders came together, put their heads together and decided to advise the President, Shehu Shagari, to change his attitude because he was using a Peugeot 505 at the time he became president. When he was to be paid salary, they told him that he should be earning a certain amount, but he said “never, where is the money? If I earn this amount, am I helping my people that I am here to assist? I am here to assist my people not to punish them.” So he approved a small amount. I don’t want to mention the amount the president was earning at that time, because it is beyond my power.
But today, even if you are a local government chairman, you will be earning serious amount of money. What are we saying or what do we think we are doing for this country?
On October 1, Nigeria will be celebrating 54 years of Independence. How would you assess the country’s progress?
We have failed to do anything close to what those Europeans were doing when they were here and we were complaining that they were foreigners; they should not come and fight for us or whatever, but allow us to handle our problems. Then we started from problems to problems here and there. We have never been able to do anything near what those Europeans did at that time.
When I started schooling, the Christians were the ones who established schools and we were all well-trained. At that time, you would start your schooling from A B D, ijapa, iweketa. After iweketa, you will begin to speak English – Standard 1 to Standard 6. When you finished your Standard 6 at that time in Nigeria, you could become anything. You could become a doctor without going through all these things they are talking about now because the foundation had been very strong and teachers were teachers at that time.
Nowadays, teachers tell students what to write in exams. So we are free, but our freedom has been punishment for Nigerians. It may be because of the politicians, because everything in Nigeria today is in the hands of the politicians; be it business or even farming. There is another thing that surprises me. At the time I was minister, the president was there as the leader, but he obeyed the instructions of the party chairman. The opposite is the case now. They would tell you the governor is the overall boss in a state. The chairman of the party has nothing to say; he or she must listen to the governor. Is that how things should be?
Like I said earlier, I decided to make a difference and I am making it. I feel very happy about it. You might have seen some cars in the compound when you entered. Those cars are not mine; they belong to the owner of the house. I have only one car and I am very happy with that because when I pass on, can I take away any car? Can the cars be buried with me? Why then are we punishing Nigerians? When these children have no jobs at all, ministers are buying cars – big cars.
We used Peugeot 505 at our time, and immediately we finished, we returned the cars. Somebody should ask government how we returned the cars to the government before we left government. Why are things changing? Why is it that all these people must become multi-millionaires when the same Nigerians are suffering?
Before the Shagari era, there was already oil and you said there was no money. What happened to the oil money?
The price of oil was very small. Crude oil was sold for $4 per barrel. That was the difference. Do you know how much they sell now? Again, let me add something: whoever you are, if you don’t go and bow to the leader, you cannot get anything now. I heard and I believe that some Nigerians, including women, were given oil blocks and so they gained. Women go to England and begin to buy houses that they have never dreamt of for their own children because they are close to the president or the Senate president or whoever.
Do you think women should participate in politics?
Of course, yes. If we refuse to participate, then we continue to suffer because women are suffering; we are the most embarrassed among the whole people in Nigeria.
But in Nigeria now, women are being marginalised in all spheres.
That was what I said. We are being marginalised even when we were there. If you are serious, facing your work and letting them know that you want to make a difference; that you are a different human being, you will start being harassed.
What do you think leads to this issue of marginalisation?
I think we still have to blame ourselves.
The women?
Yes!
How?
We have to blame ourselves. Why should the women fear their own children? Or have we seen anybody born without a woman? We are mothers to all human beings. I have been thinking about this matter. Why is it that women give birth to and if they are males, they now turn back to harass their mothers and make them as if they are servants? Initially, I said you must have love before you can give it out. You also must accept yourself and let people know that you are somebody. Are we not created by God? If we are created by God, why are we afraid of our males, the ones we give birth to? That was why I said we caused all these things. When they see somebody doing it, instead of joining her, they will begin to abuse that person, fight her. But why do we bother fighting?
Have you forgotten our lady in Abeokuta here – Mrs. Olufumilayo Ransome-Kuti? I am even happy that I am speaking from Abeokuta. Did she not face whatever that came her way? Did she not do it with the women in Egbaland? She did and till today she will continue to be remembered. So why are we afraid? We are afraid because we do not believe that we have power. Even if you don’t have, you have to look for it. Then you have to accept yourself the way God has created you.
I told some politicians when I was campaigning at that time, that when you want to do the right things, the beginning of it should be that you accept yourself. You wake up in the morning, look at the mirror and say “this is what God has brought out; I am like this” and you believe that what a man can do, a woman can do better. That means I have accepted myself. In addition to being accepted, I now believe that I must add courage, and that courage must be there.
Madam Ransome-Kuti did not bother whether she was to be taken to the prison or whatever. She believed in what she was doing. She did it and she succeeded. You remember how she died? She was ready. So you have to be yourself and be yourself when you meet with somebody who tells you “don’t do it”.
Immediately I became a minister, there was a plane crash somewhere on the way to this small town near Nigeria. When it happened, they were mentioning the people inside and my friend heard a name and ran from her house to my house and asked what was happening. I was not in and she just fell to the ground and started crying, saying: “Tell her, when she comes, to resign. We don’t want her to be minister. I thought she has died because they were announcing and mentioning her name.” As she was talking, I entered and said: I am here. Then she said: “Okay, if I thought it was your name, it means it can happen to you; just go and resign. We need you more than the government needs you. Go and resign.” I started laughing and said: my friend, if I resign, how actually do you want Nigerian women to behave? I am there for all of you.
What is your assessment of women in government now?
I am yet to hear any of them fighting for anybody – the youth, the women or whoever. I have never heard of it because everybody needs money. I have the courage to say it because if they have been doing that, things would have changed because the men may not even feel the pain on the children, the pain on the mothers. Some mothers lost their husbands, but still there is no help, nothing.
We have not heard of anything from any area. Maybe I have not been listening to the news enough. I am yet to be corrected. If they have been fighting, let us hear what they are fighting for, rather than that they are still discriminating against some women. Anyone who is not corrupt is not respected in Nigeria.
Are you saying that the women in government are corrupt?
You shouldn’t have asked me that question. At least you heard about the woman that spent money buying cars. If she was considering the pains on these children, on these youths, would she have gone to buy such expensive vehicles; for what?
If you protect yourself and you don’t protect all others around you, what do you think you are doing? Are you actually protecting or you are making things worse? Even in my family, some of them are fighting me; one called me one day and said “mummy, stop talking; after all you see all others doing the same stuff”. I replied: you are the one who would stop talking; I would continue to talk. My God has never told me to stop talking; I will talk. When I talk and my talk affects somebody, that somebody should come to face me. I am not afraid of anything because God has created me in His own image. If I am afraid to talk to let my people know the wrong things they are doing, at my age, what am I looking for?
Would you say democracy is in place in Nigeria of today?
Not really. I don’t see what you can call democracy when, unless, you have people everywhere, you cannot get anything you want. Is that democracy? I want to be taught; maybe I don’t know how to judge what you call democracy. People do what they like. If there is democracy, why should the children be suffering and few people are taking the whole money belonging to the country? Many babies don’t have food to eat. Is that democracy? Does it sound like democracy? That is not democracy.
Do you belong to any political party?
Not really!
Why?
(Laughs) When I see some wrong things, I can go to anybody belonging to a political party and say: why are you doing it this way? These things should be done like this or like that. What do you think about it? That is my system for now.
You are from Yewa North, which has never produced governor of Ogun State since its creation. What have you done using your position to make that possible?
I was far away from home. This year, I decided to move to my place. I am now in Abeokuta, which is Ogun State. I am still working hard. It is because of my attitude that I have not been able to move to my town. I want to really work without being a politician. I want to work and train my people on how to live for others, not just living for self.
When do you think a Yewa man or woman will govern Ogun?
That is a very good question that has remained a source of sorrow to me. It is high time all the Yewa-born children came together as one and go to the drawing board to produce the governor for Ogun State. My advice to Yewa is not to compete with Governor Ibikunle Amosun, but to leave him to complete his tenure, after which it will be the turn of Yewa sons and daughters and they will spend their eight-year tenure.
Who really is Mrs. Oyagbola?
Well, my name is Adenike Ebun Oyagbola. I am from Iganalade, a town in Yewa North Local Government Area of Ogun State; a local government that has been abandoned for years by the politicians. I am the first female cabinet minister in Nigeria. I worked with National Planning and I really enjoyed. I am a former Ambassador of Nigeria at the United Mexican State in Mexico with concurrent accreditation to Panama, Costa-Rica and Guatemala. I enjoyed being an Ambassador because, then, it was great honour for somebody to be sent out to represent his or her country. When you are representing a country as an ambassador, you are the president of that country over there. There is no money in it. If you are somebody who feels money is everything, then you may be disappointed for being sent as an ambassador. But for me, I really enjoyed it.
Not many knew about your family and educational background, marriage, among others.
I was born in Iganalade. Iganalade was a bigger town when I was born. I was born at a time my mother was sick and because of events that time, I was given the name Ebunoluwa. She was very sick – I think with cancer of the breast. She had had some children before me. She suffered a lot during labour, and before the baby came out, according to what I had been told and I have meditated on it and saw it, this woman opened her eyes and said this pain is too much. She told them that “when this baby comes out, if she is female, please name her Ebunoluwa for me”. After I was born, they took me to my father and he said they should name me Ebunoluwa without talking to my mother. I was never breastfed because of the cancer, but she believed that I would live. I was very close to my mother.
What would you want to be remembered for?
What I will want to be remembered for is what I hold so delicately now – to make a difference. That difference will make a difference in my country, to improve on what is happening today in Nigeria. When they say who is doing it and they say it is Ebun, that is enough for me. I have travelled far and wide. I went to England to study, got back and joined the Federal Civil Service. As a federal civil servant, I knew what and what; but when I was appointed a minister, the officers there were additions to officers in the ministry because every ministry was present in national planning.