Ayo Adebanjo, a prominent Nigerian nationalist, elder statesman and leader of NADECO, is one of the foundation members of the defunct Action Group (AG) led by the late Chief Obafemi Awolowo. In this interview with Assistant Editor (South West), MUYIWA OLALEYE, he speaks about his experience as a follower of Awolowo, as well as Boko Haram and Nigeria, among other salient national issues.
How would you rate All Progressives Congress (APC) as a party with Unity Party of Nigeria (UPN) defunct you think the paty can bring about effective change in the current democracy?
What do you mean by effective change from APC to the current democracy? From the word go, I never swallowed the propaganda you people are swallowing about the APC. You see, many of you are talking about APC. You have never talked about APC whether in government (either by hook or crook or by whatever it is) or not. You are only comparing APC in opposition to PDP. That is not the standard. APC is a collection; it is incompatible. I repeat, incompatible!
Just go on, APC (members) now say they are from AD, from ACN; that they are progressives. They are the people who, as progressives, are criticising the PDP and everybody on the other side. Now they form APC, bringing all those people they have been condemning there without any purgative, without anything. They now become progressives because they have become a gang against the government of the day. That is not my own conception. I hope you get my point? Please get it straight. I’ve told you, don’t compare. I will say we have to examine Bola Tinubu’s ambition, the honesty of it as leading the Yoruba in the Yoruba interest, in the context of what he’s doing. Is it what Awolowo was fighting for the Yoruba that he is fighting for? The whole essence was that the various states in the South West should come together.
All along, we have been agitating what Awolowo was agitating, that the federation was awkward. After the 1966 coup that truncated the First Republic, we have been talking of restructuring the country to have a truly federal constitution. That was the slogan.
And no sooner had we prepared an avenue to go and iron out those differences than Tinubu came out and said “Nonsense, the conference is a useless thing”. He doesn’t believe in it. I’m not saying the composition or the method is perfect; it is an attempt to rectify what we have been complaining about. And what we are saying is: let’s go there and force this man to do what is to be done. He said, “No, we are not going to take part.” Lagos was one of those who said “we don’t want regional government”. In other words, that is what gives people the impression that any slogan or philosophy that he preaches must be something that benefits him personally; if it doesn’t benefit him personally, he is not there. That is why I emphasise I have no personal quarrel with Asiwaju (Tinubu); my differences with him are purely ideological.
You have been actively involved in politics in Nigeria since 1951, during the formation of the Action Group (AG) youth wing, does it baffle you when the youth of the country, with their teeming population, are not ready to come together and chart…
(Cuts in) You are right. Those are the things that give people like me, should I say, a lot of pity? Up to the university, the university at that time were dynamic. No political party would dare the students union. But these days, the political parties buy the leaders of the studentd unions to sing their song. In those days, when we got to the university, the students would ask us, what are you going to do for us? Now, that is no longer there.
Do you see Buhari becoming the president of Nigeria?
No, No, No. Even within his own camp, there is no honesty. Right now, there are even disloyal members playing double game there as they did for Nuhu Ribadu (in 2011). Some leading members of the ACN at that time collaborated with Umaru Yar’Adua. Or have you heard it before? Right now, it is happening.
As a leader of National Democratic Coalition (NADECO) and Afenifere, you fought for the restoration of the mandate given to Moshood Abiola by Nigerians. How do you feel when you see Hamza Al Mustapha walking free in Nigeria, despite that he was sentenced to death in 2012?
That is Nigeria for you. That is why people like me say we have only had a civilian government; we have not had a democratic government. That is why people like me say May 29 is not the Democracy Day; it’s just free Election Day. June 12 is the real Democracy Day.
There are many of us who by the time people of our ilk get into power, when the ‘real progressives’ of the NADECO era get into power, a lot of people talking now will be in prison, including those who are in the (National) Council of State. How can you say somebody who made a coup should be enjoying facility of a free man, paying him as a former head of state? All those that are getting into power get to power by compromise.
It was Olusegun Obasanjo, who came in thereafter, that put him there to silence him. He cannot say those who put him there should be tried. Haven’t you heard in other countries where those who staged coups are tried, even if 15 years after. That has not happened here. We are just quiet, we are too old for it and you young men are enjoying it when you are a beneficiary of the awkward system. It is when you become a victim that you shout out. That is why many of you shouting now I have no sympathy for you.
Prof. Chinua Achebe, in his book, There was a Country, accused Awolowo of formulating policies mainly to exterminate the Igbo during the civil war.
I know I replied him then, “that couldn’t be”. In fact, don’t justify such. If it was to exterminate the Igbo, it was Awolowo who went to establish the Igbo after the election. And I gave instances like the Publicity Secretary then who was away in Germany. It was Awolowo who asked him to come back home. Ajuluchukwu, I gave him instances. Not only that; when the civil war was going on, Awolowo was the Minister of Finance. He was keeping the revenue allocation due to the Eastern states for them. Immediately the war ended, he gave it to them. And the Igbo were the safest in the Western Region during the war. That is a statement of fact. It was in the West that their properties were safe and they recovered them after the election. It’s all bunkum.
After the civil war about 44 years ago, the Igbo are still lamenting marginalisation. Why has there not been national reconciliation?
Are you asking me about that? You should ask the government of the day. If my party is in power, shouldn’t you have asked me what we should have done?
As a nationalist and an elder statesman, why do you think we still don’t have reconciliation?
There is reconciliation. Even the Igbo among themselves, I’ve said it in the papers before, are their own enemies.
How are they their enemies?
A lot of them know what they should have done. The moment they give them the crumbs from the table, they sing another song. They were never forthright about what they want. In all the fight for Nigeria, for everything, if you look back, the Yoruba have been the people who have been most consistent about what they stand for, even against all odds. That is why even with all the government they were forming, they always find out we are always in the opposition. Not that we are not divided. Shagari invited us for government. When Nnamdi Azikiwe was invited to be the Governor-General, Awolowo was invited to be the Deputy Governor-General. We said: “On what terms? What is the programme for the people?”
The Yoruba and the group led by Awolowo were the only people asking why they had to join a national government. Why exactly? Why does it happen? And if it happens, why did it happen? How did it happen?
So the question of marginalisation is the question of perception. There are certain areas too which the Igbo are justified to act, but they and the people who are in power, even with the military and all that, what did they do for themselves? The moment they pick one or two of them as ministers, that is the end of the matter.
One thing Obasanjo has not accepted till today is the stubbornness of the Yoruba and Awolowo that made Obasanjo the president. When they cheated Abiola, we said, “the Yoruba must have their mandate”. Babangida knew he defrauded the Yoruba, and he felt that by bringing a Yoruba man after Abiola, he would be able to pacify us. That was why he brought Shonekan and the Yoruba said: “No, we want to choose our leaders, you’re not going to choose our leaders for us”. He never knew that was our mindset.
The Ovation man, Dele Momodu, recently related the story of when they wanted Rilwan Lukman in his column. I was almost weeping. He said the mafia, the people who rule the government, have already told him that they were going to put Obasanjo there. And that is why even when they put Obasanjo there by all means, the Yoruba didn’t vote for him.
We are too principled. We are too exposed politically for anybody to draw wool over our face.
What is your assessment of the administration of President Goodluck Jonathan?
It is neither here nor there. It could be better. His administration could be far better.
How do you mean?
I mean, a lot of things that Obasanjo failed to do, he could have done them. But the man who was in the best position to really rectify the evils of the past was Obasanjo, who claimed at that time that he was not keen about being in government. When he was in government and he knew the ills of the country, it was the time he should have broken the country into a truly federal system. But for his own selfish end, he too wanted to be a beneficiary of the rotten system. He enjoyed it so much that he had the first term, second term and he wanted to use the third term; but with people like the president of the Senate then, we torpedoed this. That has been our misfortune.
Nigeria has no reason to be in this parlous fate, but for bad leadership. How can we? During the First Republic, we were compared with the Asian tigers. It was from this country they were importing palm oil seeds to plant in Asia. Now we are importing palm oil from that place.
My dear, do we begin to compare the achievements of Awolowo in the First Republic with the little resources we had? We had no oil then, but Awolowo made free education in the Western region. The first budget of the whole of Western Region, including Delta and Edo, was £5.25 million. But through planning and foresight, we made plan for free education when we came into office in 1952. We planned for three years, imposed modern internal revenue that by January 1, 1955 there was going to be free education. It was not after getting into office that we started forming committees on education, agriculture etc. All these things had been planned before we came into office; immediately we assumed office, it was execution.
That was why we were able to do it. There was no subsidy from Tafawa Balewa for our free education, free health, for the road that we tarred through good husbandry, good management, incorruptibility, integrity, a government with a vision. That is what is lacking since all these days.
The United States recently passed a verdict on Nigeria, saying that corruption is worsening under President Goodluck Jonathan and the PDP. How can we stamp out corruption?
Corruption under Jonathan is to give a dog a bad name in order to hang it. It didn’t start under Jonathan. Jonathan inherited it and people are expecting him to uproot what had been planted for about 10 or 20 years before he came into office. It’s a gigantic thing. In his attempt to do it, if he does not carefully uproot it, he too will go down the drain. I don’t say there’s no corruption under Jonathan; but I am not one of those who say it is Jonathan causing it.
Jonathan inherited it and I don’t think he can uproot it with the wave of the hand. It is a thing that has been there for long, and it would take a long time to do it. It will take a determined government to do a lot of things, and you have to be in power solidly.
How can you now face the problem of corruption when he also inherited Boko Haram? How can he be fighting Boko Haram and corruption? Because those who are behind Boko Haram are the people dipping their hands into insecurity. So if you look at the problem realistically, we cannot make politics out of it.
What is your understanding of Boko Haram and its agenda?
Are you asking me? The Boko Haram say they don’t want western education. That is what they told us. Till today, they have not told us XYZ are the leaders. That is why I don’t join people to condemn Jonathan for not going to dialogue with them. You dialogue with those you know. The man said “well, tell me the people, I will dialogue with them”. Nobody has come close to tell him: go to XYZ. They know it.
Why don’t we all join hands and see where this problem is. There was this day Obasanjo said if Jonathan gives him the nod, he can go to Chibok and bring the girls. Why does he need any clearance? If you know you can do it, why don’t you do it and say: well I’ve done it; your president didn’t give me the clearance. Everybody is trying to play to the gallery at the expense of the country. You think there is a president like Jonathan who will like to rule in a country where they are killing his citizens, irrespective of religion and class, and APC still thinks it can be playing politics with performance of the federal government.
Do you see Boko Haram as a political tool in the hands of some politicians?
Well, you see, I like to be objective about this thing. When you say it is not, the more Boko Haram unites and causes instability for Jonathan, the more you connect it with the statement of Muhammadu Buhari who said if he doesn’t win election, he would make the government ungovernable. What do you say to that? You are a Yoruba man, you know the Yoruba say: “Ajekel’ana omoku l’oni tani o mope aje ana lo pa omo”. You say you don’t know there’s instability. I’m not saying he is. I will not stupidly accuse Buhari of being responsible. But there’s a connection.
That Northern leaders are fuelling terrorism in the country?
Yes, and it is in this part of the country. Because there is a theory that those who started Boko Haram, when the whole thing went out of hand, they couldn’t control it again.
At my age, I am a statesman. I look at the balance for the country. I am not a PDP man. I don’t say they are doing very fine, but I believe the question of Boko Haram is our joint responsibility. I am a citizen in sympathy with areas that are being destroyed for nothing.
You’ve been looking for a Sovereign National Conference (SNC) for so many years. President Jonathan convened such a conference and you were one of the delegates. You have rounded off your deliberations, very soon Nigerians will have on their hands, probably a brand new constitution or recommendations that will be included in the constitution. Do you see the job you have done as being able to take us to the next level in Nigeria?
Thank you very much. The conference has been 100 per cent successful. I don’t say we have achieved everything we should have achieved. I don’t say some of the handicaps that people predicted at the conference are not there. We went there with the faith that if we do something good, we will see those who are good in the country who would not be able to implement it.
For me, if Jonathan implements 90 per cent of what is recommended there faithfully, we would have gone far. Where I stand for now is that we have done a good job, let us all join hands to pressurise Jonathan to implement it; that this is what the country wants.
To begin to say you haven’t got the constitution, you’re not delighted, that is not the game now. We are looking for derivation. We are looking for strictly federal constitution. What we have recommended, have they gone that far?
According to him, we should recommend how the decision of the conference will be implemented. We have asked him to go to the National Assembly, let the legislators pass a law to make it possible for the referendum to approve the constitution.
Because people are making a lot of noise that it is a sovereign national conference, therefore, they missed the whole report. What is sovereign? Why we are talking about sovereign is that whatever the conference decided must not be subject to any committee for revision or reversal.
What people are now saying is that the recommendation the people have made is not what the people want. Not because it can’t be implemented, but because they are not elected. They get the whole thing wrong. We want progress for the country. For me, whether APC, PDP or any other, let us have a government that will make progress, a government that will wipe out corruption. Not the label.
Year 2015 is just around the corner, and the general election is expected to be credible. Are you optimistic that it is going to be free and fair?
If we all combine to say: we want a free and fair election; there would be no violence, you will not be encouraging violence, we all have to cooperate. It’s our joint responsibility to have a free and fair election. And it is the responsibility of the federal government to ensure that is done.
For instance, after the Ekiti election, there have been all sorts of jargons, saying the place has been over-militarised. Is that not unfair? What leads to militarisation? It’s the threat of violence. And when this was anticipated in Edo and Jonathan sent the military there and Oshiomole was thanking him after the election for this, the APC didn’t complain, you remember.
There was militarisation there to the extent that before Ondo Mimiko was asking the government to give as much military protection as he gave Edo, and that if that is done everything will be fair. It happened. Jonathan didn’t win in Edo; he didn’t win in Ondo. Now that the same thing is repeated in Ekiti and Jonathan won, they protested. You see how people are? To me, the effect of over-militarisation is paucity of protests; people won’t come out. Did that happen in Ekiti? We can now see that it was the highest voting record. Militarisation only kept off violence. It didn’t disturb those who wanted to vote peacefully.
Going by the antecedents of the military, are you in support of military deployment across the country?
No, it is the circumstance that causes it. No, I am with you that it is not the pattern, but it is what we experience that causes it. When Oshiomhole asked for protection of the military and all that, why did he ask for it? It’s because of the threat of violence. It is not the common thing under a normal administration, and it was alright doing that. Under a normal system, it shouldn’t be, and it would be hypocritical for anybody to say that the position of Nigeria today is normal. Anything done to prevent evil or abnormality should be condemned, if we are going to be fair.